I'd love to explore gay men's issues as well, but I want to make it clear that I will never abandon trans, gender expansive, and nonbinary individuals. The politicians' attacks on these communities won't stop at one group; the next target could be gay men who don't conform to traditional notions of masculinity. If we're going to prioritize certain groups over others, where do we draw the line? There isn't a clear boundary because gender expression and attraction exist on spectrums. Many gay men effortlessly blend elements of both masculinity and femininity in their lives.
We all know that politicians won't stop at persecuting trans people; they'll continue to target other marginalized groups. That's why it's essential for advocacy organizations to take a comprehensive approach, supporting the entire LGBTQ+ community, not just one segment.
This is a great conversation 👏 I've been attempting as a cis gay man to become a protector/ally for our trans family members. So far, I've been pushed away (or so it seems). This is very frustrating, because I'm seen as a toxic masculine person before I've even opened my mouth or heard any dialogue.
I'm not saying that to be wary of an unknown person isn't warranted, but it seems that my visible identity is not welcome, and in fact, repulsive to anyone who gives a damn one way or the other. I'm not playing the victim card here, believe me, because while I do represent a visible/unknown threat, I also know that I have white male privilege. Even while trying to be an ally and jump in when the call goes out, I'm told to "shut up and wait your turn, you toxic man."
I'm not sure what else to do besides catch the bullets for other people. Even then, the allyship designation will only stick until the next person enters the fray.
Do I have to go to the extreme of starting a Queer Hell's Angels just to be taken serious? (In fact, a large part of the original Hell's Angels were queer too....)
Prejudice exists on both sides, and people will always judge a book by its cover. That's called being human. Without being able to know someone is an existential threat while seeing them as a literal threat is an instinct that's part of every living beings genetics. Learning to accept other people (not, "tolerate") is sometimes all that's possible. Demanding acceptance and disregarding allies is why this issue is so thorny. That's the actual biological problem when it comes to our trans brothers and sisters. Acceptance without returned prejudice is also a reality, even if it sucks.
Wow. Thank you for an open and heartfelt glimpse into your experience. You describe so many feelings I’ve had while showing up as an ally, in person, in the room, to fight with and for my people. At the NGLTF Justice Conference, I was taught my role as a white cis man is to absorbe all the pain of past and present perpetrators who were/are the same race and sex as me. Taking bullets stops being fun after a while. But I still want to help my community.
Let’s hang as gay male allies and see how we can sort this out.
Yes. We are a visibal/unknown threat, and we do enjoy the privileges of being male and white.
Lets put those atribites to good use.
I'm not sure I'm up for a Queer Hell’s Angles, but I would love to join any other gays with motorcycles who'd like to take a ride sometime in the LA Silver Lake area (BMW r1140r 2004)
I love your vision and you're desire to help and protect. Lets have a beer and get this conversation going.
Mike, thank you so much for travelling all the way to London and being part of our conference. And for writing about your experience. A couple of things that come to mind as the organiser having read your piece (to hopefully add some further context for readers).
- You're right about the general age of attendees skewing older, and the fact that younger guys feel more at risk of the repercussions of speaking up on the issue of gender identity. That said, we did have about 5% of attendees under 35 y/o, including some in their 20s. But we do need to reach more young gay men as they tend to be the more often "captured"
- HumanGayMale arose because of the backdrop of the gender identity issue, and the impact for gay men, so our first conference was primarily around how we respond to it. As you mention, there are lots of other issues for gay men that are not being spoken about, because everything is always about gender ID / trans issues, and the group discussions highlighted some of these. Next year's conference will have a wider range of topics as we start to address more of these issues too.
- The question of abandoning, or not supporting, trans identifying people is part of the crux of the whole "debate". To my thinking, and the position of HumanGayMale as an organisation, is that people who identify as trans clearly exist, and they should be afforded the same rights and protections as everyone else (and for the most part they have all of these, in the UK at least). The line that shouldn't be crossed, however, is to say that these people are actually changing sex, or that they should be afforded the rights or access of the opposite sex, or that everyone else should be forced to go along with their belief or self-identification.
Standing firm on the realities of biology does not equate to hating trans identified people, or saying they deserve discrimination. I hope more and more gay men can start to get to this realisation (before too many little boys who will just group up to be gay men are sent down the "gender affirming care" route).
Thanks again so much for being part of our first conference. I'm looking forward to working with you to grow things in the US.
It's great that you want to support trans people. They need it, now more than ever. And it's great that you want support as a gay man. You're not alone. The first step for both of these desires is to know that 'gender identity ideology' isn't a thing. It lives only in the minds of people who look at trans folks—one of the most hated and disempowered groups around the world—and somehow see them as a threat.
That thinking reminds me of the old rightwing argument that gay men were 'coming for your children,' and that we wanted to work in schools to help turn kids gay. You and I both know that idea of homosexuality is garbage, but it was effective at making groups of anxious and undereducated people see us as some threat to fight.
That same stupid playbook is now being used to drive the conversation around trans people. It breaks my heart to see it among my fellow queers. I don't know if it'll help, but as a fellow gay man, I thought I'd share my story of how came around to my thinking.
When I came out to myself (late, I was 26), I started trying to figure out what it meant to be a gay man, and inevitably I had to face the acronym. 'LGBTQIAA+'? Who were these other letters? It was easy for me to wrap my head around lesbian and bisexual, because I'd spent my life thinking about variations of sexual orientation. But gender identity? I'd always just been a man and wanted to be a man.
I bought into the arguments at the time (this was ca. 2006) that trans folks were trying to hop onto, and benefit from, the battle gay and lesbian folks had been waging for years to get equal rights. 'We're this close to convincing people not to discriminate against sexual orientation, and you want to mess it all up by talking about gender?' etc etc. They had their own fight to fight, is how I saw it.
I carried these ideas for years. Then I met a trans person. And then I met others. I started having out trans students in my classes and hanging out with close trans friends. And talking with them about their journeys, how they'd wrestled with their identity in a world that seemed to want to deny their existence and their rights, I realized how much we're the same. We all grew up learning to be ashamed of ourselves for something we had no control over.
If there's an ideology that feels real to my experience, and feels worth fighting, it's the ideology that there's only one acceptable way to be a man, and that anyone who doesn't conform to that one way (i.e., straight, married to a woman, family-oriented, believing in men's 'natural strength and power' over women, Christian probably given this insane country) deserves scorn and/or to have rights taken from them.
The battle gay men have been fighting to expand manhood to include us is not over. We have not won, and the growing attacks on trans people—who are fighting this same fight—prove it.
Trans and nonbinary folks, my friends and students, the people in your communities fighting for their rights, aren't saying masculinity is toxic. *Toxic* masculinity is toxic. Working out the difference is how we can support both trans people *and* gay men. I think the fear of trans people lies in what logically follows from the demand that we broaden our definitions of 'man' to include, e.g., trans men, femme-presenting men, etc.: We no longer have the patriarchy's old ideas of 'a real man' to guide us in developing and understanding our own manhood.
That can indeed be scary. But I'd like to invite you to see that not as a threat, but as a freedom. Every man gets to make his own way. Every man has to figure out what masculinity is going to mean for him, *and* find ways to respect the masculine presentations of others. Likely, that work can only really happen not in isolating competition over who's 'more of a man' than the next guy, but in the exact kind of community you're looking for.
I learned a lot about how to be a man from, sure, my dad. But also from Buddy Cole and Fred Schneider. And from my butch lesbian friends and my trans male students. Like I said above, we all can help each other in our struggles. The first step, if you want to lose the battle, is to let the other side divide us.
I like that both of us are looking for ways to celebrate diversity, such as gay male expressions and trans expressions of diversity. Let’s keep working towards that goal. It will require that we allow some difference in our diverse expressions, and I’m not sure the current LGBTQ+ conventional wisdom will tolerate that.
My end goal is to find ways within our LGBTQ+ coalition to celebrate ourselves and each other. I want us all to live in safety, security, and dignity—all of us.
Asserting that there is no ideology regarding gender identity within the LGBTQ+ coalition, argues that there are no values or agendas for the coalition regarding the topic. We know that’s not true. Call it ideology, conventional wisdom, principles, beliefs, or any other term. There is a prescribed way to exist that will allow you to fit into the group and a way that will get you excommunicated (canceled).
If that were not so, I could speak my mind regarding women’s sports. But I can not without suffering excommunication.
My argument is with the silence, lack of services, and outright hostility coming from the LGBTQ+ coalition toward LGB people, especially biological men. Even cis-white gay men deserve dignity and to be proud. We deserve at least one service program for gay men at the LGBT Center. There are none at the Los Angeles LGBT Center.
In the spirit of remaining undivided and strengthening our coalition, please entertain this question.
What is in it for gay men to stay in the coalition?
To have a successful alliance, all the coalition members need to get something out of it. I fail to see what we are currently getting out of it.
For the first time since 2001, when the Gallup Poll started asking whether “gay and lesbian relationships are moral,” it has dropped by six points. From 71% to 64%. The first drop ever since 2001.
So, after making progress for two decades as LGB people, centering T has had a negative effect on how we are perceived.
I can not tell the TQ+ members of the coalition how to handle their politics, but vilifying people and never admitting progress has not been working.
Ironically, after being vilified for the last eight or ten years, gay men are now asked to stay. Why would I stay at a party with so many people at it telling me I suck?
I am committed to serving my community, but I will not do it with toxic LGBTQ+ gatekeepers requiring me to hate myself as I serve a cause that is bringing down the number of Americans who support me.
Sorry, just now seeing this. One of the things evolution teaches, going back to Darwin, is that individuals in a species who adapt to their environment in ways that help them survive, conquer, etc., will succeed in the overall competition of existence. 'Survival of the fittest', 'Nature red in tooth and claw', and all that. Hard to argue with evolution, and so these ideas have led to Social Darwinism, and even the rise of 'the Alpha'. Many gay men now interpret their physical strength, their prowess and confidence, their ability to know themselves and assert themselves, as having (or being gifted) an Alpha status, and many gay men seek such 'Alphas' out.
Why, then, given the facts at hand, do we still hold onto old and wrong ideas? My guess is that we like those ideas. They tell us stories that make us feel better than the stories told by the truth. You don't have the evidence to correlate that decline in gay/lesbian favorability to trans folks' greater visibility (and you certainly can't show causation). You made your conclusion because you wanted to.
It's a move of reasoning that reminds me of how people on the far right look at the dearth of manufacturing jobs in this country, which decades ago were filled mostly by white men, and in searching for a cause blame immigrants. Not global trade policies. Not the politicians on the right who pushed for them. Not the CEOs of manufacturing companies who moved jobs overseas for greater profits.
The people in power who might more accurately be to blame are not who far-right folks blame. Instead they 'punch down', blaming immigrants, among the most powerless folks in the country. And they do this because (a) punching down always helps insecure people feel better about their own lot in life, and (b) the people in the power, like the current president, have spent a lot of money to put this false narrative forward.
No one's telling you that you suck, Mike. We're telling you you've bought into wrong ideas and false narratives you don't need to hold onto. I hear you that you believe trans people as a group want you to feel bad about being a gay man, and that they are causing Americans as a group to value you less. I don't think I can say anything to change this belief—in you or the other gay men I've met who share it—but I'll end here by saying that the next time you share your beliefs about trans people, remind yourself that you share this belief with our current president. Your hearts are aligned on that issue. Where do you go from there?
Social Darwinism and Wolf Pack Alpha theory? I’m not sure why that came up.
Thanks for telling me my lived experience is different than I think it is. Funny, that tact is considered offensive when used on the other letters of the coalition.
I just want to know what is in it for me to remain part of the current LGBTQ+ coalition.
Do you have an answer for that, other than the orange man is scary?
I agree that correlation is not always causation. But it is a FACT that more people voted for the candidate who said men don't suck than the other choice.
We need to attack policies, not people. Your salutation asserts a short-sighted, politically ineffectual, coalition-busting frame of mind that vilifies diverse thought. Agreeing with the orange man on one topic does not mean our hearts align.
Let's mend things in our house before throwing stones.
What a disappointment! It sounds as though a conference which billed itself as a Gay Men’s Conference was more an ongoing conversation about Trans issues and challenges. I would’ve been very disappointed if I’d flown all that way clearly expecting one thing- gay guys talking about ourselves- and instead got speakers talking about Trans issues.
I’m an open minded older gay man, out since 1975, and my old heart is in no way closed down or hardened about the challenges, and anguish and joys of Trans expression. However, it does feel to me as though trans issues are dominating the national LGBTQ conversation, and I’m not sure we’re moving in a positive, progress-oriented direction but rather the convo is stalled, or even treking backwards
The website, the Eventbrite page, and everything we've posted about the first conference was clear that we'd be talking about our response to the gender identity issue as gay men. The conversations weren't about trans issues, but rather how the ideology behind the trans issue is negatively impacting gay men. This did include a conversation about what are the other priorities for gay men that we need to address. HumanGayMale is an organisation based on recognising the need to look at these two different populations as two different groups with distinct needs. This conference is the first (and only as far as I know) time that a group of gay men have come together to talk about this specifically.
And did you also Google statistics of the number of attacks and rapes on women from cis gender men? Was that even mentioned. I would guess not because then you'd have to see the "risk" from trans women in women's spaces is actually so incredibly low that this is a straw man argument and deflects from the bigger threat to women. Did you hear about the very real risk trans women have from cis men? How many get attacked and unalived each year? Do you think trans people go through all these risks and hoops to jump through to transition just so they can attack women in bathrooms? You were given one side of a very biased picture. I wonder if perhaps researching the other side of the debate would clear up some of the confusion for you?
The number of attacks and rape on women perpetrated by biological males was actually emphasized at the conference.
That’s why biological women, including many lesbians (LGB Alliance), do not want to share intimate quarters with someone who was a man yesterday and is self-identifying as a female today. It’s dangerous.
Men attacking and raping anyone is wrong. It is not okay for men dressed like men to attack or unlive trans women, AND it is not okay for men who self-identify as women to rape women either.
How many rapes and sexual assaults, in addition to the ones I googled, need to happen for this to become a problem worth addressing?
This is a challenging position we find ourselves in because we all want our fellow human beings to be safe. We all want safety for self-identifying trans women AND biological women.
While I take your offer to research the “other side of the debate” seriously, so it may interet you to know that I’ve been very close to it for many years.
I lived in West Hollywood, CA, for three decades, 23 years as an employee inside WeHo City Hall, during the last four years working primarily with lesbians. I’ve staffed the Trans Advisory Board, and I’ve worked at the Trans Awards event in West Hollywood.
“My end goal is to find ways within our LGBTQ+ coalition to celebrate ourselves and each other. I want us all to live in safety, security, and dignity—all of us.” How’s this coming along? Happy to lend a hand if needed.
I'd love to explore gay men's issues as well, but I want to make it clear that I will never abandon trans, gender expansive, and nonbinary individuals. The politicians' attacks on these communities won't stop at one group; the next target could be gay men who don't conform to traditional notions of masculinity. If we're going to prioritize certain groups over others, where do we draw the line? There isn't a clear boundary because gender expression and attraction exist on spectrums. Many gay men effortlessly blend elements of both masculinity and femininity in their lives.
We all know that politicians won't stop at persecuting trans people; they'll continue to target other marginalized groups. That's why it's essential for advocacy organizations to take a comprehensive approach, supporting the entire LGBTQ+ community, not just one segment.
This is a great conversation 👏 I've been attempting as a cis gay man to become a protector/ally for our trans family members. So far, I've been pushed away (or so it seems). This is very frustrating, because I'm seen as a toxic masculine person before I've even opened my mouth or heard any dialogue.
I'm not saying that to be wary of an unknown person isn't warranted, but it seems that my visible identity is not welcome, and in fact, repulsive to anyone who gives a damn one way or the other. I'm not playing the victim card here, believe me, because while I do represent a visible/unknown threat, I also know that I have white male privilege. Even while trying to be an ally and jump in when the call goes out, I'm told to "shut up and wait your turn, you toxic man."
I'm not sure what else to do besides catch the bullets for other people. Even then, the allyship designation will only stick until the next person enters the fray.
Do I have to go to the extreme of starting a Queer Hell's Angels just to be taken serious? (In fact, a large part of the original Hell's Angels were queer too....)
Prejudice exists on both sides, and people will always judge a book by its cover. That's called being human. Without being able to know someone is an existential threat while seeing them as a literal threat is an instinct that's part of every living beings genetics. Learning to accept other people (not, "tolerate") is sometimes all that's possible. Demanding acceptance and disregarding allies is why this issue is so thorny. That's the actual biological problem when it comes to our trans brothers and sisters. Acceptance without returned prejudice is also a reality, even if it sucks.
Wow. Thank you for an open and heartfelt glimpse into your experience. You describe so many feelings I’ve had while showing up as an ally, in person, in the room, to fight with and for my people. At the NGLTF Justice Conference, I was taught my role as a white cis man is to absorbe all the pain of past and present perpetrators who were/are the same race and sex as me. Taking bullets stops being fun after a while. But I still want to help my community.
Let’s hang as gay male allies and see how we can sort this out.
Yes. We are a visibal/unknown threat, and we do enjoy the privileges of being male and white.
Lets put those atribites to good use.
I'm not sure I'm up for a Queer Hell’s Angles, but I would love to join any other gays with motorcycles who'd like to take a ride sometime in the LA Silver Lake area (BMW r1140r 2004)
I love your vision and you're desire to help and protect. Lets have a beer and get this conversation going.
Mike, thank you so much for travelling all the way to London and being part of our conference. And for writing about your experience. A couple of things that come to mind as the organiser having read your piece (to hopefully add some further context for readers).
- You're right about the general age of attendees skewing older, and the fact that younger guys feel more at risk of the repercussions of speaking up on the issue of gender identity. That said, we did have about 5% of attendees under 35 y/o, including some in their 20s. But we do need to reach more young gay men as they tend to be the more often "captured"
- HumanGayMale arose because of the backdrop of the gender identity issue, and the impact for gay men, so our first conference was primarily around how we respond to it. As you mention, there are lots of other issues for gay men that are not being spoken about, because everything is always about gender ID / trans issues, and the group discussions highlighted some of these. Next year's conference will have a wider range of topics as we start to address more of these issues too.
- The question of abandoning, or not supporting, trans identifying people is part of the crux of the whole "debate". To my thinking, and the position of HumanGayMale as an organisation, is that people who identify as trans clearly exist, and they should be afforded the same rights and protections as everyone else (and for the most part they have all of these, in the UK at least). The line that shouldn't be crossed, however, is to say that these people are actually changing sex, or that they should be afforded the rights or access of the opposite sex, or that everyone else should be forced to go along with their belief or self-identification.
Standing firm on the realities of biology does not equate to hating trans identified people, or saying they deserve discrimination. I hope more and more gay men can start to get to this realisation (before too many little boys who will just group up to be gay men are sent down the "gender affirming care" route).
Thanks again so much for being part of our first conference. I'm looking forward to working with you to grow things in the US.
It's great that you want to support trans people. They need it, now more than ever. And it's great that you want support as a gay man. You're not alone. The first step for both of these desires is to know that 'gender identity ideology' isn't a thing. It lives only in the minds of people who look at trans folks—one of the most hated and disempowered groups around the world—and somehow see them as a threat.
That thinking reminds me of the old rightwing argument that gay men were 'coming for your children,' and that we wanted to work in schools to help turn kids gay. You and I both know that idea of homosexuality is garbage, but it was effective at making groups of anxious and undereducated people see us as some threat to fight.
That same stupid playbook is now being used to drive the conversation around trans people. It breaks my heart to see it among my fellow queers. I don't know if it'll help, but as a fellow gay man, I thought I'd share my story of how came around to my thinking.
When I came out to myself (late, I was 26), I started trying to figure out what it meant to be a gay man, and inevitably I had to face the acronym. 'LGBTQIAA+'? Who were these other letters? It was easy for me to wrap my head around lesbian and bisexual, because I'd spent my life thinking about variations of sexual orientation. But gender identity? I'd always just been a man and wanted to be a man.
I bought into the arguments at the time (this was ca. 2006) that trans folks were trying to hop onto, and benefit from, the battle gay and lesbian folks had been waging for years to get equal rights. 'We're this close to convincing people not to discriminate against sexual orientation, and you want to mess it all up by talking about gender?' etc etc. They had their own fight to fight, is how I saw it.
I carried these ideas for years. Then I met a trans person. And then I met others. I started having out trans students in my classes and hanging out with close trans friends. And talking with them about their journeys, how they'd wrestled with their identity in a world that seemed to want to deny their existence and their rights, I realized how much we're the same. We all grew up learning to be ashamed of ourselves for something we had no control over.
If there's an ideology that feels real to my experience, and feels worth fighting, it's the ideology that there's only one acceptable way to be a man, and that anyone who doesn't conform to that one way (i.e., straight, married to a woman, family-oriented, believing in men's 'natural strength and power' over women, Christian probably given this insane country) deserves scorn and/or to have rights taken from them.
The battle gay men have been fighting to expand manhood to include us is not over. We have not won, and the growing attacks on trans people—who are fighting this same fight—prove it.
Trans and nonbinary folks, my friends and students, the people in your communities fighting for their rights, aren't saying masculinity is toxic. *Toxic* masculinity is toxic. Working out the difference is how we can support both trans people *and* gay men. I think the fear of trans people lies in what logically follows from the demand that we broaden our definitions of 'man' to include, e.g., trans men, femme-presenting men, etc.: We no longer have the patriarchy's old ideas of 'a real man' to guide us in developing and understanding our own manhood.
That can indeed be scary. But I'd like to invite you to see that not as a threat, but as a freedom. Every man gets to make his own way. Every man has to figure out what masculinity is going to mean for him, *and* find ways to respect the masculine presentations of others. Likely, that work can only really happen not in isolating competition over who's 'more of a man' than the next guy, but in the exact kind of community you're looking for.
I learned a lot about how to be a man from, sure, my dad. But also from Buddy Cole and Fred Schneider. And from my butch lesbian friends and my trans male students. Like I said above, we all can help each other in our struggles. The first step, if you want to lose the battle, is to let the other side divide us.
I like that both of us are looking for ways to celebrate diversity, such as gay male expressions and trans expressions of diversity. Let’s keep working towards that goal. It will require that we allow some difference in our diverse expressions, and I’m not sure the current LGBTQ+ conventional wisdom will tolerate that.
My end goal is to find ways within our LGBTQ+ coalition to celebrate ourselves and each other. I want us all to live in safety, security, and dignity—all of us.
Asserting that there is no ideology regarding gender identity within the LGBTQ+ coalition, argues that there are no values or agendas for the coalition regarding the topic. We know that’s not true. Call it ideology, conventional wisdom, principles, beliefs, or any other term. There is a prescribed way to exist that will allow you to fit into the group and a way that will get you excommunicated (canceled).
If that were not so, I could speak my mind regarding women’s sports. But I can not without suffering excommunication.
My argument is with the silence, lack of services, and outright hostility coming from the LGBTQ+ coalition toward LGB people, especially biological men. Even cis-white gay men deserve dignity and to be proud. We deserve at least one service program for gay men at the LGBT Center. There are none at the Los Angeles LGBT Center.
In the spirit of remaining undivided and strengthening our coalition, please entertain this question.
What is in it for gay men to stay in the coalition?
To have a successful alliance, all the coalition members need to get something out of it. I fail to see what we are currently getting out of it.
For the first time since 2001, when the Gallup Poll started asking whether “gay and lesbian relationships are moral,” it has dropped by six points. From 71% to 64%. The first drop ever since 2001.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx#:~:text=Over%20the%20years%2C%20there%20has%20been%20a%20gradual%20increase%20in,2001%20to%2033%25%20in%202024.
So, after making progress for two decades as LGB people, centering T has had a negative effect on how we are perceived.
I can not tell the TQ+ members of the coalition how to handle their politics, but vilifying people and never admitting progress has not been working.
Ironically, after being vilified for the last eight or ten years, gay men are now asked to stay. Why would I stay at a party with so many people at it telling me I suck?
I am committed to serving my community, but I will not do it with toxic LGBTQ+ gatekeepers requiring me to hate myself as I serve a cause that is bringing down the number of Americans who support me.
Sorry, just now seeing this. One of the things evolution teaches, going back to Darwin, is that individuals in a species who adapt to their environment in ways that help them survive, conquer, etc., will succeed in the overall competition of existence. 'Survival of the fittest', 'Nature red in tooth and claw', and all that. Hard to argue with evolution, and so these ideas have led to Social Darwinism, and even the rise of 'the Alpha'. Many gay men now interpret their physical strength, their prowess and confidence, their ability to know themselves and assert themselves, as having (or being gifted) an Alpha status, and many gay men seek such 'Alphas' out.
Well, it turns out alphas don't exist in nature. Wolves are pack animals, and the males of the species only form alpha-style hierarchies in captivity (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-alpha-wolf-idea-a-myth/). And it turns out Darwin was mostly wrong about the survival of the fittest. The majority of species on this planet have evolved through cooperation, not competition (https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2016/05/12/Study-Cooperation-not-struggle-for-survival-drives-speciation-evolution/2941463063352/).
Why, then, given the facts at hand, do we still hold onto old and wrong ideas? My guess is that we like those ideas. They tell us stories that make us feel better than the stories told by the truth. You don't have the evidence to correlate that decline in gay/lesbian favorability to trans folks' greater visibility (and you certainly can't show causation). You made your conclusion because you wanted to.
It's a move of reasoning that reminds me of how people on the far right look at the dearth of manufacturing jobs in this country, which decades ago were filled mostly by white men, and in searching for a cause blame immigrants. Not global trade policies. Not the politicians on the right who pushed for them. Not the CEOs of manufacturing companies who moved jobs overseas for greater profits.
The people in power who might more accurately be to blame are not who far-right folks blame. Instead they 'punch down', blaming immigrants, among the most powerless folks in the country. And they do this because (a) punching down always helps insecure people feel better about their own lot in life, and (b) the people in the power, like the current president, have spent a lot of money to put this false narrative forward.
No one's telling you that you suck, Mike. We're telling you you've bought into wrong ideas and false narratives you don't need to hold onto. I hear you that you believe trans people as a group want you to feel bad about being a gay man, and that they are causing Americans as a group to value you less. I don't think I can say anything to change this belief—in you or the other gay men I've met who share it—but I'll end here by saying that the next time you share your beliefs about trans people, remind yourself that you share this belief with our current president. Your hearts are aligned on that issue. Where do you go from there?
Social Darwinism and Wolf Pack Alpha theory? I’m not sure why that came up.
Thanks for telling me my lived experience is different than I think it is. Funny, that tact is considered offensive when used on the other letters of the coalition.
I just want to know what is in it for me to remain part of the current LGBTQ+ coalition.
Do you have an answer for that, other than the orange man is scary?
I agree that correlation is not always causation. But it is a FACT that more people voted for the candidate who said men don't suck than the other choice.
We need to attack policies, not people. Your salutation asserts a short-sighted, politically ineffectual, coalition-busting frame of mind that vilifies diverse thought. Agreeing with the orange man on one topic does not mean our hearts align.
Let's mend things in our house before throwing stones.
What a disappointment! It sounds as though a conference which billed itself as a Gay Men’s Conference was more an ongoing conversation about Trans issues and challenges. I would’ve been very disappointed if I’d flown all that way clearly expecting one thing- gay guys talking about ourselves- and instead got speakers talking about Trans issues.
I’m an open minded older gay man, out since 1975, and my old heart is in no way closed down or hardened about the challenges, and anguish and joys of Trans expression. However, it does feel to me as though trans issues are dominating the national LGBTQ conversation, and I’m not sure we’re moving in a positive, progress-oriented direction but rather the convo is stalled, or even treking backwards
The website, the Eventbrite page, and everything we've posted about the first conference was clear that we'd be talking about our response to the gender identity issue as gay men. The conversations weren't about trans issues, but rather how the ideology behind the trans issue is negatively impacting gay men. This did include a conversation about what are the other priorities for gay men that we need to address. HumanGayMale is an organisation based on recognising the need to look at these two different populations as two different groups with distinct needs. This conference is the first (and only as far as I know) time that a group of gay men have come together to talk about this specifically.
Just sent a post to my readers about your post.
https://edwardhsebesta.substack.com/p/going-deep-a-gay-guide-to-reality
And did you also Google statistics of the number of attacks and rapes on women from cis gender men? Was that even mentioned. I would guess not because then you'd have to see the "risk" from trans women in women's spaces is actually so incredibly low that this is a straw man argument and deflects from the bigger threat to women. Did you hear about the very real risk trans women have from cis men? How many get attacked and unalived each year? Do you think trans people go through all these risks and hoops to jump through to transition just so they can attack women in bathrooms? You were given one side of a very biased picture. I wonder if perhaps researching the other side of the debate would clear up some of the confusion for you?
The number of attacks and rape on women perpetrated by biological males was actually emphasized at the conference.
That’s why biological women, including many lesbians (LGB Alliance), do not want to share intimate quarters with someone who was a man yesterday and is self-identifying as a female today. It’s dangerous.
Men attacking and raping anyone is wrong. It is not okay for men dressed like men to attack or unlive trans women, AND it is not okay for men who self-identify as women to rape women either.
How many rapes and sexual assaults, in addition to the ones I googled, need to happen for this to become a problem worth addressing?
This is a challenging position we find ourselves in because we all want our fellow human beings to be safe. We all want safety for self-identifying trans women AND biological women.
While I take your offer to research the “other side of the debate” seriously, so it may interet you to know that I’ve been very close to it for many years.
I lived in West Hollywood, CA, for three decades, 23 years as an employee inside WeHo City Hall, during the last four years working primarily with lesbians. I’ve staffed the Trans Advisory Board, and I’ve worked at the Trans Awards event in West Hollywood.
“My end goal is to find ways within our LGBTQ+ coalition to celebrate ourselves and each other. I want us all to live in safety, security, and dignity—all of us.” How’s this coming along? Happy to lend a hand if needed.